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I realize there are people for whom moral issues trump economic ones. They feel most important is to prevent gov't from providing any support or intervention in families. People must rely wholly on their families. They do not want women to be able to have sex without getting pregnant (so want no contraception from Planned Parenthood). If they are white, they do not want their children to be in schools with black or Hispanic or Asian children nor with children who do not do well academically; they want their children to have good connections for jobs later on, so want privatized schools. They think they will be able to afford it as the prices will not go up beyond their means.They don't like and don't want public transportation. They feel only white middle class people should have the right to vote; people who have been in prison should not be permitted to vote again; that black and non-white people should not be able to control anything. They don't believe women when they say they have been raped. They hate food stamps. No gov't help for the poor in the form of welfare even if you have a job. No federal money for public housing. No one should go to college who does not pay the price wholly by themselves; they distrust college and wish people did not need to go for a job. They want what they consider Christianity to be dominant in the public sphere and its norms and values to be part of laws. Believing in America means believing you will never need help from other people outside your family, never need gov't aid through taxes. And most of all everyone should get to keep all they earn no matter how much or in what way.

All these people are thinking (as they may say) of voting for Romney/Ryan.

But consider: are you sure you won't need the following at all? and if Ryan does not intend to do these things why does he say he means to? He is the son of well-connected upper middle class business people and his present mansion is on the site of where a factory once was.

Social security for which people pay out of their payroll taxes part of their salaries and which is a rare public program not to be in debt at all.

Ryan considers Social Security a “Ponzi Scheme.” In the Fall of 2011, Texas Gov. Rick Perry (R) called Social Security a “Ponzi scheme,” and Paul Ryan agreed. Ryan wants to privatize the program. This would enrichen corporations enormously.

Medicare. Are you sure you can take the price of hospitals? Have you had a debt collector at your door? Is no one in your family disabled? are you sure you will never have a disabled child or brother/sister or spouse?

Romney and Ryan would eliminate health care for 31 million people who are poor or disabled. Medicaid, which helps poor Americans, some seniors, and children afford health care, is right in the crosshairs of Paul Ryan’s House budget. He proposed cutting $1.4 trillion from the program, a move that would kick about 11 million people off Medicaid over the course of ten years. The Romney-Ryan plan is even worse, and is estimated to force about 44 million people off the program

.Ryan used to supports a key aspect of Obamacare. Ryan will likely say at the debate that the Affordable Care Act is government overreach. In fact, he might even invoke “death panels,” as he has done at recent town halls. But Ryan proposed something extremely similar to these so-called “death panels” in 2009 — twice. In December of 2010, Ryan also asked the Department of Health and Human Services for an Obamacare health care grant “for the Kenosha Community Health Center, Inc to develop a new facility in Racine, Wisconsin, an area within Ryan’s district.”

Tax relief.

62% of Ryan’s budget cuts come from programs that benefit low-income Americans. Ryan’s budget proposes “$5.3 trillion in nondefense budget cuts.” 62 percent of the reductions would come from programs that specifically help low-income Americans: We do not yet know why Romney will not release his tax returns. Probably there were decades when he paid little or nothing. He is someone who received amnesty from the IRS in 2009 in exchange for his beginning to pay his tax properly.\

Ryan voted for future defense cuts he now blames on Obama. Though Ryan claims Obama somehow orchestrated the sequester, a series of across-the-board spending cuts triggered if Congress can’t produce a better plan, the VP pick himself was a supporter of the mechanism. Not only did he vote for legislation to establish it, he peddled the plan to his Republican colleagues and proposed a similar initiative in 2004.

5. Ryan and Romney cannot cut taxes across the board by 20% and lower the deficit because it’s mathematically impossible. Ryan claims they will achieve these twin goals by closing loopholes and getting rid of deductions for the rich. But, as the Tax Policy Center points out, even if they got rid of every single deduction and loophole, they would still need to find more revenue. That means they’d need to start raising taxes on the middle class.

6. Ryan voted to increase the debt ceiling by $4 trillion under Bush. During the Bush years alone, Ryan voted with his party’s leadership to increase the debt ceiling by $4 trillion. In total, he has voted six times to raise the debt ceiling, increasing it by $5.8 trillion.

Ryan’s budget included the same $716 billion in Medicare savings included in Obamacare. The $716 billion that Obamacare takes out of Medicare will almost definitely come up in tomorrow’s debate. Ryan has claimed that Obama “raided” Medicare to pay for his health care reform. In fact, Ryan wants to make Medicare a voucher program and proposed taking the same cuts out of Medicare in his budget. But whereas Obamacare uses those funds to eliminate fraud and increase efficiency, Ryan proposed taking that money to pay down the deficit.

Have you thought about sending your son or daughter to college or going yourself - often a sine qua non for a job.

7. Ryan wants to kick 1 million students off of Pell Grants. As part of his budget, Ryan proposed cutting Pell Grants for nearly 1 million college students. Seventy four percent of Pell Grant recipients in 2011 came from families with incomes of $30,000 or less. There is no evidence that these cuts will curb rising college costs.

Are you sure you or your wife or daughter will never find pregnancy life-threatening?

Ryan opposes abortion access for rape victims. When it comes to abortion rights, Ryan is among the most extreme anti-abortion members of Congress. He believes rape victims shouldn’t have access to abortions and co-sponsored a “personhood” amendment that would have defined a fertilized egg as a human, thus outlawing not just abortion but also in-vitro fertilization and some forms of contraception.

If you consider that economics matters less than morality, how about lying? does not that matter? Ryan lies. If he should become president, could you trust him to care about others and do wise things.

And yes when Joe Biden ran for president I was for him being president and sorry when an aneuryism drove him out of the campaign.

Sylvia

Comments

( 5 comments — Leave a comment )
misssylviadrake
Oct. 12th, 2012 11:11 am (UTC)
the present state of things can readily be changed
Hi Ellen, thanks for your thoughts and comments. I'm an undecided voter and thoughts like yours do get me thinking about what exactly it is I'm voting for. It is very easy to think with your wallet, which is something I can relate to. I have been fortunate enough in my life to be able to progress thanks to many federal programs. When I was in school, I took out federal loans to pay for school. I was able to get an FHA loan on my first home purchase so I qualified for a lower interest rate and low down payment, which helped me a great deal. When I was unemployed, I collected unemployment. And I'm pretty sure affirmative action helped me obtain certain jobs that led to my training and skillset that I have today. Now, as a self-employed person with my own consulting business, it is painful the amount of taxes I have to pay. Outside of that though, since I do remember my roots and the hard work it took to get where I am today, my undecidedness comes from questioning Obama's ability to effectively lead this country. I do think he is a fine person but I'm not sure if he has the leadership skills to come to mutual agreements and get things done in the White House. I suspect other undecided voters feel the same.

Me: Well what makes you think Romney can lead? all his programs are for doing what will bring wealth and prosperity for a very few. If he were able to do what he wants, that would be devastation and hurt for huge numbers of people. Obama prevented the US from going into a depression; he saved the two auto companies in Detroit; he has passed important legislation for women; he has passed the Affordable Health Care act which will not only help millions of people but save enormous amounts of money costing the US. I have read that if you look into what happened in Massachusetts during Romney's period he was no success; he made things a lot worse. Rare successes include his version of Affordable health care. He'd be terrible with regard to banks -- let them do what they want which incluides foreclosing to make profits. For jobs Bains corporation exported jobs; it would buy up companies and to get them to pay stock owners push them abroad. To sum up what he wants to do if he succeeded would make things worse. He'd dismantle needed protections and help. There is evidence that those things he did it was by being a crook (taking money from death squads to open Bains) and in Massachusetts was not a success. Obama's record is not strong -- but what he did not succeed in doing was because the republicans would not let him -- but what he did was successful. Did you look at what's happening in Illinois (remember he was serious about ignoring 47% of the population): http://www.democracynow.org/2012/10/10/as_bain_ships_jobs_to_china
misssylviadrake
Oct. 12th, 2012 11:17 am (UTC)
Persuasion?
Caroline: Well, I don't know, that's why I'm decided! I'm not for Romney or against Obama. I am truly unsure. Romney does not have any congressional experience so he is an unknown factor as well as far as how he will be able to perform in the White House. I recently heard Bob Woodward promoting his book The Price of Politics on the radio the other day. Have you read this? I'm interested in learning more about the internal workings in Washington so I'm planning to get a copy this weekend and take a look. Thanks for your comments and link. I live in Illinois and this state is hurting, big time.

Me: Carolyn: here it is. Romney will do evil; he has been doing evil for many years, from taking money from death squads to funding Bains Capital to all he did when he was there; all the acts he does depend on great cruelties to huge amounts of people. That alone should be enough to tell you he will be as bad for the US as Bush was. Obama is not effective in the way he should be; he is too much a compromiser with evil but he means to do good and he has done some and from his first day in office began to prevent the worst of evils from ending systematic torture (which Romney has said he will begin again) to passing the Lily Ledbetter act. If these truths don't persuade you, there is nothing more I can say to persuade you.

Caroline: Hi Ellen, I don't seek to be persuaded, I'm looking for information really so I can make my own decision. Being in technology, I'm no stranger to jobs being off-shored to places like India, Singapore, China, etc. My experience is corporations and private business are not humanitarian organizations, they seek to do what is best for shareholders or their own bottom line. And yes, people do suffer because of this, I'm aware. My hope is that as my business grows and I am one day able to employ other people, that I will do things differently. Thanks for your comments, I will consider what you are saying. I wish Obama was stronger and more effective, I hope he can convey this in future debates. I do not share in the public opinion that he did poorly during the first debate. I felt that Romney did have a strong start but after listening all the way through, Obama had better closing arguments once he got his thoughts together and addressed (what he said) was new information from Romney.
misssylviadrake
Oct. 12th, 2012 11:19 am (UTC)
making things worse
I cannot understand how you can contemplate voting for such a man. No businesses are not humanitarian organizations but they do not have to be cutthroat destroyers of thousands of people. They should share their profits because it's the workers who make part of the wealth. The workers working all their lives putting their hours and labor into the product whiich the owner siphons off. What's happennig is those in power no longer have to give the worker their fair share but keep most of it for themselves. I don't see how you can read about how Chinese people are treated in factories with say make ipads and not want to change things. Reality need not be this way. You can make laws to force the powerful to give back to thiose they take their wealth from a fair share. You are standing up for exploitation as if that's the only way. You see evil and say evil must be. No it does not have to be. We didn't have to go to war in Iraq; Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 but Bush had friends who wanted to take ovr those oil fields and then take from the people of the land all their wealth, for it is theirs. We have wars because arms manufacturers contribute huge sums to campaigns. That you see suffering or have suffered does not mean suffering of the type inflicted has to be. To vote for Romney is to vote for no change except in the direction of more suffering. He'll change things to be worse.

Actually I'm not trying to persuade you so much as simply state the truth and to see what it doesn't faze you is dismaying in the extreme. That you read some of what we read in our class and it made no impression.
misssylviadrake
Oct. 12th, 2012 11:22 am (UTC)
who we are
Your own stories of your use of help (which comes from taxes which re-distribute income) are those of the upper middle to middle class person, the semi-privileged person. I never took out loans because I never had a salary to pay them back. I pay very high taxes out of the income I have, but this does not have to be. We could have a genuinely more progressive system and we did in the 1950s. In the 1950s the top 10% paid 90% of their superfluity in taxes, and there was no deficit; CEOs did not make the huge sums they do as uniions forced the companies to share the profits. The only gov't help I ever contemplated was welfare. I have been eligible but I never went because I know how bad the attitudes are of the people empowered to distribute help. I've never been eligible for unemployment because the jobs I had were defined in such a way that when I was let go or didn't work I was not considered unemployed. An adjunct is defined so in periods of non employment you are not unemployed. Those rules are set up to exclude the working poor. So my outlook is of someone of a lower class than yours.

I'm not for Obama or Romney. Actually I think Obama far too close to Romney in what he's not done. I"m for people like myself, women like myself, a world and worlds of people like myself, voting my own interest and theirs.

2 axioms: "The worst betrayal of intelligence is finding justification for the world as it is." ---- Jean Guehenno. Who we are determines what we notice and what we regard as worthy of notice, what we find significant...
---Robert Coles, _Doing Documentary Work_
misssylviadrake
Oct. 12th, 2012 01:59 pm (UTC)
The stories we tell
Diane K: Just to chime in, Carol, Romney does have experience as a governor. He was my governor for four years. He was horrible, reversed nearly everything he said once he got into office and THEN, he only stayed for one term, didn't even run for a second, because he was too busy looking to this move. Look at what Deval Patrick, the governor who followed him, has said, and it will give you some idea of his record. Though Patrick is a Dem, everything he said in his convention speech about Romney in MA was accurate.

Me: I can't resist saying how much I learn by talking on the Net. We tell things we never get a chance in life to do. For example, Carolyn's story resembles that I read Republicans at the conventions told of themselves. She presents herself as working hard, self-employed and although she had some help, the sense is she made herself; the story is of someone on her own, building her world. The next line is taxes. She pays way too much and the sense is of unfairness. I agree she pays too much but I'd say because the tax system is not progressive.

I would never tell this story of myself. I have no sense of myself in a story like this. Mine would start with luck and chance. I was lucky enough to live in NYC where college was for free and I could get there by 2 buses; I inherited genes which enabled me to do well in school; my father encouraged me intellectually and I was a reading girl. By disposition I fled social life. So I started and did well in college, and that led to graduate school where I was (quite literally) out-classed, of the wrong gender, and (as I was told by an advisor) had gone to the wrong school (a public free one).

But all around me all my life I'd seen people also far far unluckier than I, who could take the opportunities I could and as I feel we all ought to help one another and change the larger system so no one will be excluded and provide a basis for a decent living for all. As to taxes, the admiral makes out the forms; I've really no idea how much we pay. I've winced when I see what is taken out of my payroll but then it's becaue of my derisory salary. My first response to her was to say I've only taken 2 loans and that's because I was 1) forced; and 2) felt confident the admiral's salary would cover it and we would pay it quickly; in the event my adjunct salary helped too. But we were in debit only a short while for the car, and we had a 15 year mortgage to get rid of the house loan. My story is a democratic story, one you might hear in the democratic convention.

I feel Carolyn will not vote for Romney because he's a good leader, but because her story is the one he falsely says he stands for. Rather he is part of the privileged elite who exclude all they can and live off the produce of the rest of us.

Sylvia

Edited at 2012-10-12 02:02 pm (UTC)
( 5 comments — Leave a comment )

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